Mom off Joanna off Wales, spouse out of Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth

Following my personal writeup on the youngsters away from Llywelyn Fawr and Joanna in addition to solutions they gotten, We looked once more from genealogical pages dedicated to Gwladus Ddu. While it’s real, because the numerous genealogists mention, that throughout the absence of unique proof somehow, the brand new identity of the mommy from Gwladus Ddu must remain ‘unknown’, I found no need to changes my personal completion that her mommy is Joanna rather than Tangwystyl.

She kept no issue by the Alexander II

One after that origin dedicated to its youngsters ‘s the after the conceptual in the ‘Leaders and you will Queens out of Britain’ a respected guide, written by Oxford College Force, web page 106:

‘Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth, b.1173, son regarding Iorwerth Drwyndwn (‘Flatnose’) and Marared, child from Madog ap Maredudd; acc. east Gwynedd 1195; married Joan, illegitimate daughter off King John, 1205; issue: Gruffudd (illegitimate), Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus, Margaret, Susanna; passed away 11 April 1240; buried: Aberconwy.’

Basic, let me shell out tribute to Sharon. Their research having ‘HBD’, ‘Drops the fresh Shadow’ and ‘This new Reckoning’, carried out until the advent of the online, try it is a good. Around that which you she’s written in one to trilogy really stands romantic examination today.

To show it is just myself one thinks therefore, i want to price that genealogist who’s a good fan of Sharon: “I’m very keen on Sharon Kay Penman’s guides. While they commonly strictly biographical, I feel more comfortable relying on their work to ‘complete the brand new blanks’ (considering the number of browse she obviously put in their courses), compared to actually citing some genealogical offer that we attended across the within my research (I understand all of us stumble on source by doing this). So you’re able to whoever has not even discover their own performs, I will suggest they extremely extremely, specifically if you want to get a become for what life was instance 800 years back.”

Following concerns presented because of the Beth, Suzanne and you can Sandy in particular, I begin comparing the fresh label off Joanna’s mother (labeled hereafter, to have simple resource due to the fact ‘Clemence’ perhaps not ‘Clementia’) using an affair with the in order to-be-king John. Immediately after running upwards of many blind alleys, generally as a consequence of trying get together again the new chronology of 1 on most other, We have compensated on which uses. I do not claim that the thing i have written is definitive in almost any profile or form, and the truth is that we are likely to not sure out of their unique title.

(a) New illegitimate Joanna, child out of “Clemence,” was truly created regarding wedlock –– as it is turned out by the Honorius III’s decree saying their genuine within the April 1226, even in the event instead of prejudice on queen otherwise realm of England (i.age., giving their particular no claim compared to that throne). The newest decree, that has been transcribed about brand new, unpublished Register off Honorius III (Reg. Vat. thirteen, fol. 122 ), says inter alia you to definitely “Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de- soluta,” hence, I am informed, translates as “Queen John away from The united kingdomt, whenever unmarried , fathered you from the a single woman.”

This step became a lot more complex than simply I might features envision it is possible to!

It means Joanna can have already been born no after than simply 1189 whenever John hitched Isabella of Gloucester. Their mom, “Clemence” was probably French or Norman, as the evidence throughout the patent rolls of John’s leadership shows that Joan is lead regarding Normandy so you’re able to England inside December 1203, to arrange to have relationship so you’re able to Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (see below). Joanna died when you look at the Feb 1237.

(b) John’s legitimate daughter Joan, from the Isabella from Angouleme (hitched in Haitisk kvinner med dating order to John in the 1200 during the age a dozen!), came to be in the Gloucester towards twenty-two July 1210 (comprehend the Tewkesbury Annals in the Rolls Collection, vol. 36.we, p. 59; new Worcester Annals, ibid., vol. thirty-six.iv, p. 399; and the Rotuli Litterarum Patencium having John’s Leadership, pp. 124, 143). This is basically the Joan just who next married Alexander II regarding Scotland and you will she passed away from inside the 1238, certain weeks just after Joanna (this could take into account a few of the dilemma obvious between the several women).